Mauricio Lima has been on assignment for The New York Times in eastern Ukraine for the last month. He had previously covered Ukraine for The Times from February through May. His conversation with James Estrin has been edited.

 

Q.
What have you been photographing during the last week?

A.
I’ve been mostly in places where heavy shelling has happened — in Donetsk and outside of the city. Today, I went to an orphanage in Makiivka in the morning. There was intense shelling, mostly incoming rockets and mortars from the Ukrainian army. All of the children were taken to the basement by their teachers and we stayed there for about an hour. A few children started crying. I took some pictures and later I decided to move on and see the damage from the shelling which was very intense.

Then the shelling started again and myself and the two other photographers I was with stopped our car and ran into another basement in an apartment building. There were around 100 people, mostly elderly, a few children and a couple of dogs. We stayed there for a few minutes. I later found out that a few minutes after I left, three people died from the shelling nearby.

Near the railway, I saw one body lying near a small house on the other side of the street. And then I saw the most heartbreaking moment. I was taking pictures of the destruction there and then I saw an older woman coming with a younger man wearing camouflage. She was crying and she was yelling very, very loud. Louder than anyone I have ever heard.

Her son was taking her to see her daughter whose body lay on the ground.

She fell on the ground next to her daughter’s body, shrieking. I took a few pictures and then I decided to leave them there. It was a very intimate moment and the woman was hysterical. Also, we were completely exposed and a firefight erupted nearby.

Photo

Residents collected water underneath a bridge as several explosions could be heard in central Luhansk. Aug. 14, 2014.Credit Mauricio Lima for The New York Times
Q.
For the last few weeks the Ukrainian army has been shelling Donetsk while you’ve been staying there?

A.
Yes. I’ve not been in actual fighting but I’ve been in shelling over the last two weeks and some of them very close to the scene I was photographing.

Q.
Have you seen much of the Ukrainian army?

A.
I saw Ukrainian soldiers on checkpoints on the way to Luhansk, but mostly I’ve seen pro-Russian rebels around.

Q.
A lot has changed in Donetsk since last spring.

A.
Yes, definitely. I spent almost the whole month of May in Donetsk and the city was completely different. People were in the streets, life was completely normal. Now, most of the banks are closed, all the malls are shut and very few shops are open. Only a few supermarkets and gas stations are open in Donetsk. There is a curfew here between 11 o’clock until 6 in the morning.

Photo

Relatives of Valentin Volchok, a wounded Ukrainian activist, watched over him at a hospital in Odessa, a Black Sea port in southern Ukraine.Credit Mauricio Lima for The New York Times
Q.
You were there at the end of the Maidan protests. After the government fell there was a wave of optimism in the square. What is the difference between what you experienced then and what you’re experiencing now?

A.
At the end of Maidan, everyone was celebrating. I remember one day I went to photograph one of the Ukrainian self-defense groups that were starting up and one volunteer told me that this is not the end but just the beginning of the war.

What’s going on in eastern Ukraine is a direct consequence of what happened with Maidan.

Q.
What is the mood now in Donetsk?

There is a sort of sadness in the air here. On the weekends, Donetsk is like a ghost city. It’s hard to find people on the street. I hope that the situation can end in a peaceful way.

Photo

Pro-Russian militiamen cleaned weapons at their base in western Slovyansk. April 30, 2014.Credit Mauricio Lima for The New York Times
Q.
You worked in Iraq and Afghanistan over many years. How does covering the conflict in Ukraine compare to the other wars that you have covered?

A.
In Iraq, most of the time we were worried about hard bombs and suicide attacks by people whom we couldn’t see. In Afghanistan, I couldn’t see any evidence of the Taliban. You realize that they are present in some parts, but I just saw civilians.

In Ukraine you see both sides and you’re able to talk with both sides.

Q.
What does that mean to you as a photographer?

A.
Sometimes you accumulate too many sad moments.

An 80-year-old Russian-speaking woman was hit by a shell in the backyard of her mother’s house in Donetsk last week. She was injured and crying and desperately trying to clean herself using some water.

You see moments like this and our instinct tells us to hold the camera and press the button. But in that moment she was alone and needed help more than she needed someone in front of her taking her picture.

Then shelling resumed again and everybody was scared and lay down on the ground away from windows. She couldn’t walk so she stayed there.

I held her arm and sat with her on the ground. I brought her a towel and helped her wash. Then the doctors arrived with an ambulance looking for a dead man inside the house.

I asked them to take care of the woman because she was crying and she was still alive and she had several wounds all over her body. Then I started to do what I normally do. I tried to find a good picture.

Photo

A villager collected parts of a destroyed Ukrainian army vehicle on the outskirts of Kramatorsk. May 14, 2014.Credit Mauricio Lima for The New York Times

Pour St Nicéphore le Patriarche, voir les travaux pionniers de Marie-José Mondzain sur l’ image et sa traduction des Antirrhétiques de St Nicéphore (Klincksieck)

« Es ist aber zu beachten, dass der Apostel die Deutung ablehnt, wonach Geist und Fleisch gewissermassen wie zwei getrennte Grössen nebeneinander stünden. Sie bilden vielmehr eine vollständige Einheit, so wie die Wunde und das Fleisch eine Einheit sind. Gewiss ist das Besondere der Wunde und das Besondere des Fleisches voneinander verschieden. Aber dennoch : weil Wunde und Fleisch eine Einheit bilden und die Wunde eigentlich nichts anderes ist als das verwundete oder schwache Fleisch selbst, darum wird dem Fleisch beigelegt, was der Wunde zugehört. So ist ein und derselbe Mensch zugleich Geist und Fleisch. Aber das Fleisch ist seine Schwacheit oder Wunde, und insofern er das Gesetz Gottes liebt, ist er Geist; insofern er aber sündhaft begehrt, macht sich de Schwachheit des Geistes und die Sündenwunde geltend, die erst heil zu werden beginnt. So sagt Christus : « Der Geist ist willig, aber das Fleisch ist schwach », Matth. 26, 41″

Martin Luther, Römerbriefvorlesung, 1515-1516